#579 Pim de Morree | Co-Founder Corporate Rebels & Krisos | New Work, Self-Management & Organizational Transformation

00:00:00: Our guest today studied industrial engineering and management science, an innovation management at Eindhoven University of Technology.

00:00:09: After a few years in traditional corporate environment he realized that the way most organizations worked simply didn't make sense to him.

00:00:18: In two thousand sixteen He quit his job together with just me now they created a bucket list Of some of the world's most progressive organizations and set out to visit and study them.

00:00:29: What started as a block became Corporate Rebels, A global platform and movement dedicated to making work more meaningful engaging in human.

00:00:40: Over the years they have studied more than two hundred organizations across six continents including pioneers such as Burtzog, Haya, Morningstar & Semko.

00:00:52: Together with this partner he was named one of The Thinker's fifty top thirty emergent management thinkers in two thousand eighteen and received the Thinker's Fifty Radar Award In Two Thousand Nineteen.

00:01:04: He is also co-author of Cobbett Rebels, Make Work More Fun And Start Up Factory!

00:01:11: Their deep dive into Hire's radical Rendon high V manage model.

00:01:17: but today he has taken the experiment one step further.

00:01:22: with Creasers He and his partners acquire traditional companies, and transform them into self-managing organizations.

00:01:29: Instead of only studying the pioneers they are putting their own ideas to the ultimate test Real Companies, real people, real ownership And real economic results.

00:01:41: For almost nine and a half years now this podcast has explored The question Of how work can empower People rather than weaken Them.

00:01:49: In more than five hundred seventy episodes we've spoken with over seven hundred guests about what has changed and still needs to change.

00:01:57: How much hierarchy do organisations really need?

00:02:01: What happens when controls are replaced by trust in distributed decision making, can self-management work at scale not just in exceptional companies but across the wider economy?

00:02:12: One thing is certain To solve our current challenges We need fresh inspiration.

00:02:18: That's why we continue to seek out methods, role models experiences tools and ideas that bring us closer through the heart of new work.

00:02:26: Furthermore from the very beginning We've been exploring the question whether everyone can truly find a live-out but they really want deep down.

00:02:36: You're listening on The Way To

00:02:38: New Work today

00:02:39: with Pim de Morey.

00:02:58: Welcome!

00:02:59: Welcome Pim to On The Way Too New Work.

00:03:01: Finally Thank you

00:03:03: It is good to be here.

00:03:04: Yeah,

00:03:05: you've been on the hunting

00:03:06: list

00:03:06: for a

00:03:08: very long time.

00:03:09: I think our listeners will really be happy to have you finally here and we start out show as we do it always with questions of all questions.

00:03:20: how did he become the person that your are today?

00:03:24: Nice.

00:03:24: an easy question to start with.

00:03:28: But let me not bore people too much.

00:03:32: Related to our conversation today, I think one of the key moments was when it was still during my studies.

00:03:41: So i studied at Eindhoven University of Technology and i studied industrial engineering in management science And learned a lot about management but mostly just the traditional way of managing a company.

00:03:57: It was during that time that I saw Dutch documentary.

00:04:01: It was called the Capitale Kracht van Geluk, which means like the capital power of happiness.

00:04:08: And it was about this Brazilian entrepreneur called Ricardo Sammler who had as many people who are listening to this know he wrote a book called Maverick in which she talked about his family business that he inherited and took over and completely transformed into a bossless organization where people could create their own working schedules, set their own salaries elect their own bosses or representatives.

00:04:35: And I fell in love with that documentary on that story and i was really thinking out loud and talking to a lot of people about this saying okay how can it be that this guy organizes a company like this?

00:04:46: It actually works!

00:04:48: Why are not other companies working like that?

00:04:50: To me it felt so natural when I was seeing And a lot of the things that I maybe thought were already bit strange and stuff, or way things are organized in whatever institute or organization you step into.

00:05:06: There it kind came home to me.

00:05:09: It was really for my key moment still is For rethinking organizations with somebody who had done it and who had shown that there was a completely different way of organizing.

00:05:21: That wasn't just more fun for people, but also led to a lot of success in his business.

00:05:27: And I think that's the kind of key moment that years later at least ten years later started corporate rebels and still fuels many things we do now.

00:05:38: So thats clearly... Did you have Ricardo Semmler on this podcast?

00:05:41: No, but now we talked about the book and I see it in front of me because that's one of the books.

00:05:47: I got as a used book from Amazon.

00:05:49: And remember that?

00:05:50: It's like white red greenish blue things on The Book.

00:05:54: I remember that so i can see it In Front Of My Eyes.

00:05:57: I'm like why didn't you have Ricardo On The Show?

00:05:59: But That's A Good That'a good hint!

00:06:01: Yeah...And I Remember When I Read The Book um..The Feeling That I

00:06:04: Had

00:06:05: Other Than Your Feeling ..I Was Like I was Studying in Zankarn Very Conservative Business-Wise.

00:06:12: No, no way on earth does it work.

00:06:13: But I read this book because i had this romantic feeling It's supposed to be but... ...I just talked about- I didn't do like you did.

00:06:20: so something made me move.

00:06:22: what was then?

00:06:24: Yeah maybe let me share some of the other moments To answer your first question and think that another experience I have clearly an inspiration, but not so much in a positive way.

00:06:37: But more than negative ways to start.

00:06:38: Corporate Rebels was my first working experience.

00:06:41: So I graduated from university and then started to work for company where i could do Much of the things that I had studied before And that I liked.

00:06:50: It was fast growing company.

00:06:52: when I worked there about three thousand people You can feel... In those years you could feel the transition From family business a large family business into corporate.

00:07:04: So it was taken over by private equity and the next buyer was Toyota, you could just feel all of traditional management creeping in where when I started working there at least some things left from this family-business feeling.

00:07:22: but over time that being stripped away for what people learned as they did with university.

00:07:29: So adding management layers, creating procedures for people to adhere too.

00:07:35: And taking a lot of the entrepreneurship and fun out-of-the job!

00:07:39: For me this experience.

00:07:41: I worked there just two and half years but very quickly it became clear that such an environment was not getting the best from myself And I could see it in my colleagues as well, the complaining at The Coffee Machine.

00:07:55: People just being fed up with things that were decided for them instead of having a say and vote on how things are done.

00:08:02: so It felt like they're complete opposite to what i was reading For example Maverick and seeing other businesses That had been diving into after that.

00:08:11: So from me there's kind two thing coming together right?

00:08:15: what's possible?

00:08:16: and two, okay.

00:08:17: What is the reality for myself?

00:08:19: And so many other

00:08:20: people.".

00:08:21: That was where things started with Corporate Rebels when I said we used a good friend of mine that worked at Big German Company Henkel and experienced something very similar after he graduated in nanotechnology.

00:08:37: We were working on different jobs but running into exactly same problems and frustrations.

00:08:45: if what Ricardo Semmler and others are showing can be done.

00:08:49: And we're working in this reality.

00:08:52: that's far from it, why not quit those jobs?

00:08:56: Start looking for examples of companies to do things differently... ...to properly understand how its'e done!

00:09:02: Is is actually as good a look at the books or maybe a bit utopian way of looking at realities?

00:09:09: For us both with skepticism.

00:09:12: let's see these companies are actually like in real life.

00:09:16: But also figuring out the practical side and pragmatic, okay if that's the case then what does it look like?

00:09:23: And how is it different from we've experienced so far?

00:09:25: Before we dive into Quarble Rebels let me just jump one step back because I mean at this age when you watch this documentary other people of your age would maybe admire Steve Jobs or Bill Gates or whatever.

00:09:46: I think there has to be more than just this coincidence that you watch this movie, it has to something which have do with your family and friends in the environment where we grew up.

00:09:57: so can give us some context?

00:10:00: How was it being a young boy pin?

00:10:06: It's very nice!

00:10:08: A lot of it came from... So I grew up in a family with one brother, three sisters.

00:10:17: And it's quite big family In very small town called Zirekse in Zeeland which is the coastal province A lot of German people go to on holiday.

00:10:25: so when winter we spoke Dutch and summer you would mostly listen to German.

00:10:31: Oh wow

00:10:32: Not that i picked it out but You're

00:10:34: poor guy.

00:10:35: Yeah

00:10:38: It was beautiful area to grow up very quiet.

00:10:41: And I got a lot of trust from my parents, so it gave me a lot freedom and also trust... ...and they give me the feeling that whatever I wanted to do….

00:10:51: …I could do as long as i gave it a proper try even if this was outside the conventional path.

00:10:59: So that inspired in later decisions where life would just give all the freedom to explore life connected to or inspired by our passion about whatever that may be.

00:11:14: So I think those, they really helped grow into what we are doing now and it's also so trust is such a key element.

00:11:22: who have the organizations that we research and visit in new ways of working in general?

00:11:28: And i think alot if came from there upbringing

00:11:32: when we started talk before we switch on the microphones we explained why we say new work or Neue Arbeit in Germany.

00:11:43: Does this make any sense?

00:11:45: In your language, is it a New Work or Neuer Arbeit something you're referring to... ...or are you just talking about Future of Work?

00:11:52: No not Future Of Work!

00:11:53: In the Netherlands We Say Nieuwe Manieren van Werken.

00:11:55: So It's Very Similar To New Work The New Ways of Working and New Wades of Organising And I know that in Dach Region That Is Mostly New Work But Every Country Has Its Own Name For It Or Phrase for It.

00:12:09: I think it's good because then people can give a local feeling to it.

00:12:12: But, i think its also bit of challenge in this field that everybody says something different and calls it something different so... So.. It is also a challenge.

00:12:22: bring into the next level.

00:12:24: How was the experience you made?

00:12:27: I was just jumbling about old video footage from Friedrich Bergmann like six years ago before he died when we interviewed him at Detroit and Arbor in Detroit.

00:12:39: And I thought like, In that phase six years ago a lot of people had this feeling we have to achieve or it would be very nice.

00:12:51: how was your experience from this?

00:12:54: Okay i want to have that!

00:12:55: This is nice.

00:12:56: you at the water machine versus okay let's really pursue it and pedal to the metal, because there's a big difference in terms of romanticizing.

00:13:09: And that really achieving when also comes responsibility for example?

00:13:16: I think one thing came out my upbringing was trust... ...and confidence in myself but at the same time also a lot of naivety.

00:13:26: This is one of my weakness or strength and not seeing any problems that could come your way.

00:13:35: I think this was for me also... For me it wasn't a really big decision, but to quit our jobs and start corporate rebels and move from complaining at the coffee machine into action trying to do something about it.

00:13:51: We didn't look in the road ahead.

00:13:53: what would happen?

00:13:55: like?

00:13:55: to be honest, we're in a very privileged position right?

00:13:57: So we had good university degree.

00:13:59: We have little bit of savings and couple of air miles that could at least get us six months on the road.

00:14:05: And if it wouldn't work out then still what's worse than can happen?

00:14:11: well okay Then would have go look for job which probably will be in traditional organization because there is just not many others out their.

00:14:18: so.

00:14:18: but still thats ok right?

00:14:19: Thats doable!

00:14:20: So...we didn´t really looked at whats going wrong.

00:14:24: And so that's maybe the positive side.

00:14:26: The challenge of this naivety was when we started and then we started to visit some these companies, We felt it was so natural That I was thinking in ten years time probably every company will be organized like this.

00:14:42: So i think its also shows a bit the naivity on that and we're ten years later now but far from there.

00:14:50: bring us back when you started it, or which was the first company visited.

00:14:57: So let's really give us a chance to feel how it

00:15:02: was.".

00:15:03: Okay so we're super scrappy right?

00:15:05: We had already little bit of savings and I did have quite few air miles from my previous job that i could spend on those expensive flights.

00:15:14: but to save cost we moved into one apartment even More embarrassing.

00:15:21: We moved into one bedroom so that became the corporate rebels headquarters where we

00:15:27: Where we started

00:15:28: Michael and I also shared rooms on.

00:15:31: there were traveling, okay?

00:15:32: It's perfectly fine One level up.

00:15:39: yeah That

00:15:41: was fun because it wasn't like ok.

00:15:42: Okay.

00:15:42: We didn't have any families.

00:15:43: We did never house to pay for So but it wasn' t much that could go wrong.

00:15:48: Went to live in this same bedroom and that would be the kind of base for traveling around to visit pioneers.

00:15:54: And we just started reaching out.

00:15:56: so very simply, We made a list Of all the companies we wanted to visit The entrepreneurs we want it to talk through the academics we wanted To learn from and then put them on our website?

00:16:08: We called at our bucket lists are listed people who you wanted to learn From And that's how we started, putting everything out in the open saying to everybody okay.

00:16:15: We're frustrated at work.

00:16:16: We know many more people are these.

00:16:18: other People would love to talk too and the companies with loved who visit.

00:16:22: let's go Out there Visit them see if they will welcome us and then Go into their company sitting and talked as many people as we can To figure about what?

00:16:31: They actually doing different than The only way that we could think of to share it was through blogging.

00:16:38: so we created a super crappy website And that's where we started blogging about everything that we learned.

00:16:46: So, it was just reaching out to these pioneers and some were very open from the start.

00:16:51: so our first visit was a car drive one hour away in Utrecht, a law firm with four-day work weeks no managers heavily inspired by Ricardo Semmler And they were working in this very progressive way, even a law firm environment where many people think is not doable with all the partners and juniors.

00:17:18: All that stuff going on but had found their ways to do it.

00:17:21: On same day we visited another IT company in Netherlands up north Where learned about how they implemented self-management, holacracy In there organization How helped them free people up and create more entrepreneurship.

00:17:37: And that's how those first, well two or three years kind of continued.

00:17:41: So continuously traveling all around the world to visit organizations and to learn as much as we could about these radically different businesses.

00:17:51: And when I remember this correctly.

00:17:55: you then came up with principles or trends?

00:17:59: You analyzed eight trends.

00:18:01: is it right was part earlier that you, because I think they're still so true and maybe it leads us into this.

00:18:13: Yeah no came after a couple years in twenty sixteen we started at twenty-twenty published the first book.

00:18:20: i think that was in twenty nineteen or eighteen we uh... We came up with as kind of main.

00:18:25: what another?

00:18:26: We sat down when visited hundred organizations Started analyzing properly, okay.

00:18:33: What is?

00:18:33: what are now the key themes and one of those things that these businesses do different than?

00:18:38: The more traditional ones And this is how we kind of came up with his.

00:18:42: these a trends would really separates in our perspective to pioneers from the traditional normal companies.

00:18:50: I think because i'm pretty sure that not everyone in our tag group is following you, but let's just sum them up.

00:19:00: Because they are so valid and maybe we can give some examples of our voice... We're now on episode five hundred seventy-nine with you!

00:19:08: So many people, Perils, maybe we start that you say and I like the way.

00:19:17: You did it?

00:19:21: It was.

00:19:21: this is now black-and-white more say.

00:19:25: well its a trend to see More companies go out of their way And started with from profit to purpose and values.

00:19:34: Maybe We start there.

00:19:37: i love To have some examples where they said This company were saw in very good example.

00:19:44: Yeah, so yeah.

00:19:48: The first one I think sort of the move from a focus on profit or at least profit maximization and that being the only thing company truly is about.

00:19:59: And it's a move we are seeing very clearly in more and more companies.

00:20:03: It's a moved to a very clear purpose and value.

00:20:05: So yes We need money to exist but we don't just exists.

00:20:09: make money contribute something more meaningful to the world, or whatever that may be.

00:20:15: Could be very noble like for example one of the businesses we visited in first year at Patagonia.

00:20:21: Well many people know this as a purpose pioneer and we experienced it ourselves when they took us surfing California.

00:20:31: We were rolling around in ways where they were surfing But it was to explore what this company was about before seeing any office.

00:20:41: They said, let's meet at the beach so we can actually show you why we exist?

00:20:47: We want people to explore outdoors in a responsible way taking care of nature and that is where I wanted to show first how do inside our company And it's one of the examples, but also here in the Netherlands we have a beautiful example of Tony's Chocolate Only.

00:21:05: The chocolate brand that you're probably familiar with as well.

00:21:08: Also company came out from a point of frustration From the founder where he said okay there are so much Troubles In the cacao industry and then at whole supply chain So many people abuse.

00:21:21: There is lot slavery.

00:21:22: We need to do something about That And they set up a business to achieve that, so yes.

00:21:27: They need profit and the more profit they make... ...the more they can actually contribute to their cause.

00:21:34: This is something we have been seeing in all of these businesses,... ...to rally their employees, customers or suppliers around this common purpose.

00:21:43: To do something much more inspiring than just making money for shareholders.

00:21:49: I've come back with two questions on the coffee machine.

00:21:55: there is still a huge difference between you want that and you realize, like really bring it on the way.

00:22:04: I mean... A lot of people say no i don't want to do this in traditional ways but they might not know if something was better than what we had before.

00:22:15: But bringing us into the first steps of stumbling through that and trying make things happen Because I'm pretty sure there are quite some learnings along the way when it comes to like how people are reacting, themselves and management.

00:22:34: And then we go from their...

00:22:39: You mean these steps that businesses take?

00:22:42: Yeah!

00:22:44: When you worked with them of course had an idea about how fast it goes but maybe took a long time.

00:22:51: The typical stuff is when you read the book, and get going.

00:23:01: I think that the purpose trend is one of the hardest ones to put into practice.

00:23:07: if your an existing business that wants transform from being very profit driven.

00:23:13: I think the other stuff is more structural things or behavioral.

00:23:18: Things that you can change, but this purpose so much to core of what do.

00:23:21: and some many companies say now they are purpose driven right?

00:23:24: And then put out fancy commercials on one people too thing there very much having these noble cause.

00:23:31: But for me you hear it.

00:23:35: Or if we see an ad commercial from a bank not sure its charity commercial business, and then you see the name of a company.

00:23:44: You say okay well isn't it?

00:23:45: maybe just a bit of greenwashing or purpose washing?

00:23:48: And people feel this right.

00:23:50: why?

00:23:51: because the company is not really about that!

00:23:53: The company may be tries to steer in that direction but It doesn't make a whole other sense.

00:23:58: start campaigning for if don't live internally with your people who work at your company.

00:24:02: Don't Feel it?

00:24:03: So the start should always more Inviting people in for a discussion and dialogue around.

00:24:09: what is it that we're trying to do here.

00:24:11: And maybe, It's different going forward than What We've been doing In the past.

00:24:14: but That requires A very big shift in how we hire People How we make decisions Who we work with?

00:24:21: What kind of products we offer.

00:24:23: So it's a super hard one to put into practice.

00:24:26: and then we're not even talking about all the external factors that play role in forcing companies more into.

00:24:32: Traditional path of focusing on maximizing shareholder value.

00:24:35: so this is really, really tough fun.

00:24:38: its way easier for businesses.

00:24:39: there are starting out to have a clear purpose.

00:24:41: almost all business has something they want to create or improve work add-to-the world.

00:24:49: In the beginning when they start but Holding on to that and is much easier than implementing in a business.

00:24:57: That has already gone down the more traditional route of focusing on satisfying shareholder needs first,

00:25:04: but what are people typically afraid off when you work with them?

00:25:09: What other typical things even if they don't say it like I'm pretty sure management would never send all.

00:25:14: I'm not afraid But do probably realize it along the way and recognize.

00:25:18: there will be very curious to hear different angles and perspectives, stories you hear in order to wipe the stuff away that they don't want see.

00:25:30: I think it's just that we're conditioned... ...to think about businesses so differently.

00:25:39: We grow up thinking that businesses are there for people and shareholders And thinking about that differently is just really hard for people.

00:25:53: Even if you start talking about it and give examples of businesses working in a different way, and are financially successful as well... ...people still don't think the two can go hand-in-hand.

00:26:05: People often are scared to go down the route focusing more on our purpose.

00:26:12: We will probably lose on financial side one thing that people are scared of or what keeps them from actually trying to go down that route.

00:26:27: Michael, you were gone for a moment but just to catch up.

00:26:31: I was curious about like... What typically the fears of people they try to hide and not show when we start in such process?

00:26:45: very trustful call today with one of my crew members and we were on the phone.

00:26:50: And this was an issue that you typically don't tell your boss, I'm not expecting it but since I learned from Amy Edmonds in psychological safe environment like i am very performance driven in terms results You can be full human And still it's sometimes difficult because some people don't want that and put their masks on, personas are on stories.

00:27:22: On the other hand there is certain phases in companies where you have a purpose to think like Is this purpose now going against company goals?

00:27:35: As you said shareholder value could be also part of generating it in a purpose driven way or something.

00:27:42: This is so difficult to bring it all together and keep the direction.

00:27:49: I'm betting, guessing there was no like one size fits all solution.

00:27:54: but what are the minimum things you would look out for when clients reach out to say oh we wanna do that?

00:28:07: Yeah first a key thing then is to look for sincerity right Really about doing that or is it just a nice marketing trick?

00:28:17: Or is it to attract new people to your organization?

00:28:21: and How do you do?

00:28:22: that's just by having conversations about this stuff.

00:28:25: so really asking three times why Why, do you want to do this?

00:28:31: And the answer okay.

00:28:31: Why Do You Want To do That and what?

00:28:33: why?

00:28:33: Is that A reason for you to do It?

00:28:35: I think This is So key in finding The right People In Companies to work With especially For when it Comes down to Purpose.

00:28:43: it's so important because you have the idealistic side and a pragmatic side.

00:28:47: So if you want to convince people from the pragmatic side, okay businesses that are purpose-driven have an easier time getting your right clients.

00:28:55: they can be more profitable because people are willing to pay premium for brand that they trust them believe in and contributes is something that they value?

00:29:04: That's the pragmatic site but never gonna convince people who don't really believe.

00:29:07: I think also need the idealist where No matter what the financial side is, we just need to do it because its better.

00:29:14: It's better for our environment and communities or society if you think of things in a certain way.

00:29:22: And I think that combining these two can be more purple driven But that should not be the reason to do it.

00:29:36: The reason is because you really believe in it and something value will leave the world a better place if we do like this.

00:29:49: And how would compare with the purpose driven but leaning towards other side tech companies where It's almost like a religion.

00:30:01: And people follow and say, there is a bigger reason we need to reach AGI We need to fly to Mars.

00:30:06: I don't know.

00:30:07: There are several things where you can put purpose into that place But it seems like these two sides of drifting Quite far away Like who owns the true purpose direction?

00:30:19: Yeah Good question!

00:30:23: People feel right That this businesses not really purpose-driven.

00:30:26: Yes, they can say that I want to put people on Mars because it will save humanity or whatever they wanted do but just don't feel like the real reason especially not over time as their businesses grow and go stock market where all pressures of external shareholders even though might start out well with a well intentioned cause.

00:30:53: Over time, you see this mission drift showing up so clearly.

00:30:58: Especially in Germany people doing great work around it with purpose – the Purpose Foundation focusing on these alternative ownership structures like Steward Ownership.

00:31:07: Now Eric Ries wrote a book on it, Incorruptible also.

00:31:11: to once again focus that way we've set our systems and ownership structure of businesses is actually working against creating purpose-driven businesses.

00:31:22: So we need to also look at the system itself and change it so that people are not forced into a direction, maybe intrinsically they don't want to take?

00:31:32: And I think that's key thing for us to change.

00:31:35: if you really want on bigger scale get people behave differently because If this system set up in such way only incentivizes financial success then yeah just depend upon couple of outliers to do things differently, but you don't want it.

00:31:51: You wanted the other way around where a vast majority of people go into direction that's better for world.

00:31:57: instead just few outliers fight against broken system.

00:32:01: How has there been examples in history?

00:32:06: Where could tell the incentive was set in a better way?

00:32:12: because people pursued more long-sherms goal.

00:32:14: I'm thinking of like the Sagrada Familia and Barcelona where they finished after, I don't know, hundred forty four years or something?

00:32:22: You have to be very purpose driven architect to plan something like that!

00:32:26: And it's strategic genius.

00:32:29: but when i was a child i wasn't basalona...i saw that..and i remember my feeling ..like why on earth would you do

00:32:35: that?!

00:32:35: Now ,I saw the pictures ...I wasn't there yet I thought okay, they really finished that.

00:32:40: And there was my lifetime not spanning the life time.

00:32:42: but can history teach us something about

00:32:47: it?

00:32:49: Well you had Rutger Brechmann on your show as well right and his book Humankind.

00:32:56: It shows very much people are intrinsically good or most people aren't intrinsically so.

00:33:01: what we need to do is just take out all of the crap from today's system and allow human beings to just be human beings, to be motivated around causes.

00:33:14: To get together with their communities or organize things that benefit them in the people around them.

00:33:18: I think it's not so much about creating something radically new.

00:33:22: i think its just breaking The stuff doesn't work right now because we're incentivized to go into a weird direction.

00:33:28: That is not very human.

00:33:31: So if you take out that short-term focus on your quarterly earnings and like, how do you call that?

00:33:42: Arresting everything else that comes your way in pursuit of those quarterly earnings.

00:33:47: I think it's just a very shitty and broken system And we need to change that so human beings can be themselves.

00:33:54: So probably will get this later all the conversation as well.

00:33:58: but We started buying companies ourselves too That were traditionally organized.

00:34:06: reorganize them around everything that we believe in.

00:34:09: And it's not so much about creating something radically new, It is just getting rid of all the toxic structures.

00:34:16: So human beings can show their best qualities Can show creativity and care for others.

00:34:22: Long-term thinking being passionate About people they work with customers They support All this stuff I think is very intrinsically human.

00:34:32: We need to get rid off the rotten system so that people can actually be the best version of themselves.

00:34:40: So, it's very fascinating and maybe we will not be able to flip through all eight trends but I think one of the most crucial ones if you have just for a couple minutes perspective on global system which is influenced now by Authorism, like the Trump administration or in other countries.

00:35:14: What is the right word?

00:35:15: Autority, Führungskräfte, authoritarian.

00:35:20: Do you think this... It's

00:35:21: just a fun-word like hierarchy!

00:35:25: Is it the last...?

00:35:28: attempt of this kind, or people to avoid what you are working for.

00:35:33: What we're working toward?

00:35:34: do think it's such a damage that will fall back fifty-sixty years and its not clear whether we'll find back on track?

00:35:43: I mean...I see all the examples!

00:35:45: The companies...I'm big fan of Patagonia and the company you analyze, Bootsorg etc.

00:35:52: but seeing an administration where Earning billions of dollar where the president is selling a four hundred thousand euros early information we say, well this in our system would be corruption.

00:36:12: Do you think it hurts?

00:36:13: The idea off making... ...the world better working place and living in planetary boundaries or yeah see my point.

00:36:25: so

00:36:26: Yeah, yeah.

00:36:27: Well for sure this puts us back years decades I don't know how long?

00:36:32: For sure these forces Don't just live in the society at large and a government level right.

00:36:39: so you see this in organizations too where companies feel perfectly fine to be much more authoritarian top-down than they were before.

00:36:49: They see it around them And then what can bring people if they do something purely make decisions based on self-interest.

00:36:58: So yeah, it puts us backward for sure.

00:37:00: I'm just not sure and nobody knows this And only the future will tell what a what we'll create?

00:37:05: Maybe This is an opportunity For counter wave and counter trends to arise.

00:37:12: That's maybe the naive part of me thinking that We could do this.

00:37:17: That's why this work has become even more important.

00:37:19: Yes, it is great when the world around you... ...is more or less moving into a same direction like maybe we've had in the two-thousands and now its changing very dramatically.

00:37:30: but I think that works becomes even more.. ..important to show that.

00:37:33: okay!

00:37:33: We need new ownership structures.

00:37:35: so may be this time to create better foundation for it And better ways of working So people can experience being human instead of less human to keep working on it so that once there is maybe a better platform for it, then I can actually also go into that direction and we can achieve much bigger skill than before.

00:37:57: You mentioned Drutgar Bergmann in Humankind and you did Utopia For Realists Before?

00:38:02: And in moral ambition he really wrote the question okay at the end of your life who's the person you want be as...I love this.

00:38:14: We just had a couple of episodes before we have.

00:38:16: A German social entrepreneur, his name is Paul Betke.

00:38:20: he founded lemon eight which creates eight and cherry tea things and bottles healthy or quite healthy.

00:38:35: And he's really supporting social entrepreneurs, uh... He told me in our episode that the already co-funded one thousand four hundred ideas around the globe.

00:38:49: Do you think that social entrepreneurship can be um One piece?

00:38:55: In this puzzle?

00:38:57: Yeah I think it is a key piece One of the most amazing experience from our ten years of travel we had last month, two months ago.

00:39:07: We went to Uganda and we visited a couple social enterprises there.

00:39:15: so maybe bit background story... So we donate at a time present for profit to charities that do something about getting people out very poor working conditions.

00:39:29: One organization we've been supporting for years is called Sina, it's a social innovation academy.

00:39:34: And they combine self-management with Social Entrepreneurship.

00:39:38: so what do you get?

00:39:39: people out of very bad work environments or people that have no job whatsoever?

00:39:45: and to give them training um... For three months completely makes me rethink about how day work, how they function.

00:39:54: So what are my strengths?

00:39:54: What are my challenges and what am I limiting beliefs?

00:39:59: How can i take more initiative?

00:40:01: What the problems that I really want to solve.

00:40:04: so tapping into that moral ambition of people as well.

00:40:07: They get them through that transformation period And then have a one-to three year process where they support those people to become social entrepreneurs locally.

00:40:19: Solving local challenges through entrepreneurship.

00:40:23: So for example, one of those businesses we visited, Eugenics.

00:40:28: They make soap with malaria or mosquito repellent in it so people won't be bothered by these malaria mosquitoes and they sell them at a high price to tourists.

00:40:38: then they subsidize this to the local community so that they can also protect themselves while not having to pay a big prize from those soaps which they cannot afford.

00:40:47: Another example is very social enterprise also run in a way with no bosses, so very much aligned with our philosophy there.

00:40:57: And it was a beautiful experience because we visited this organization and they've supported more than... What is it now?

00:41:04: One hundred fifty businesses to start but two thousand jobs that were created because of these.

00:41:11: I think one of those things that alleviates people out-of-poverty gives them decent proper jobs And also helps them solve problems and challenges in their local communities.

00:41:24: I think it's one of the prime examples, what can be done if you set up businesses the right way with a purpose-driven idea?

00:41:31: In self managed ways where people really develop themselves to find what they believe or are passionate about... ...and put that into practice for greater good!

00:41:42: You have a couple trends which deal with these insights so much more complicated than what was before that there is.

00:41:54: Yeah, no one could build on his own or her own a plane or let's say generate relative AI.

00:42:02: So do you have the trend from?

00:42:06: The hierarchy of Pyramid to the network of teams the Trends from the centralized authority to distributed decision-making and from directive leadership to supportive leadership?

00:42:17: maybe we dive into this.

00:42:18: Let's say three trends and maybe have one or two examples where you saw this.

00:42:23: I'm thinking of, from your country... Maybe it is on the list.

00:42:30: Mürttur?

00:42:31: Yes!

00:42:33: Sorry, that was too

00:42:34: obvious.

00:42:36: More

00:42:36: than five hundred.

00:42:41: Hopefully we'll get some more.

00:42:43: We

00:42:44: can give a long list

00:42:45: to shine

00:42:46: light into our long lists.

00:42:47: Yeah,

00:42:50: so this is one of the key features.

00:42:53: And I like how you brought them together because those trends are very interconnected and linked to each other.

00:42:59: So we're now working on a new book that's coming out in February.

00:43:03: twenty-seven.

00:43:05: Probably our deadlines are similar to the ones from the Sagrada Familia.

00:43:09: It might be little bit later But the ideas that were published in February will be about human beings relate to each other and organize.

00:43:19: And based not just on what we've done the last two hundred years, mostly hierarchy but also what we have done much longer ago... ...and what's very much in human nature?

00:43:30: Then you get a different organizational models that organize relationships in a very different way.

00:43:34: But I think people are experiencing it more now.

00:43:39: The world is so different than it used be.

00:43:44: It was great idea to implement hierarchy in businesses during the industrial revolution when people were not very well educated, they had to work on a manufacturing line.

00:43:54: Work was the same every single day and you know this story right?

00:44:00: So now it... The world is very different And people also feel okay these rigid structures.

00:44:06: They don't work really well In a very complex environment.

00:44:10: so we need to change And this is what many pioneers have already figured out some for decades.

00:44:16: For example, Beardzorg but many others as well that they know.

00:44:19: OK This fixed hierarchy just doesn't work really Well when people need to be trusted To take initiative to look for solutions so They can move quickly etc.

00:44:29: etc.

00:44:30: So it broke down these structures Already very long time ago and form People into indeed What we call a network of teams?

00:44:36: So setting up small units within the larger business with mostly eight to twelve people that run their team as if it's a business within larger organization.

00:44:47: So they have end-to-end responsibility over something, so could be customer or product?

00:44:51: Could we region like Beards or... It can't do anything else but as long as the team come together and properly own one part of the business.

00:45:00: And thats what were seeing in One of the clearest trends, and we see it now even in very traditional businesses that realize okay.

00:45:07: We have to do something different than now with AI.

00:45:09: they think all of a sudden this is possible.

00:45:11: It's not just possible Now.

00:45:12: its been possible for a long period time but maybe The case is stronger now when things are changing Even more quickly That we cannot wait For people In hierarchy To make decisions And then others to execute on them.

00:45:25: So This one Of the most interesting findings.

00:45:28: I Think The hierarchical model is great for certain elements, and it works really well in some contexts.

00:45:37: But there are different organizational models and setups that work really well other contexts And I think most businesses working a very different context than where hierarchy's good at.

00:45:47: They know.

00:45:47: now they just start thinking about or not understanding yet how to organize like that internally To be able thrive on this complex fast changing environment.

00:45:59: We like something resonated here with me this ownership topic and I would dive into that a little bit because This is something typically in Germany.

00:46:10: You keep it very separate as saying like leading a company owning a company two different things Sometimes, its mixed up sometimes not.

00:46:17: we had an podcast episode was Richard Socher.

00:46:19: He's one of the most quoted persons on earth when it comes to AI.

00:46:24: he invented prompt engineering his papers led foundation of Open AI.

00:46:31: And he said in his new company where they go on the recursive super intelligence, so an intelligence that actually teaches itself like a loop... The question is how do you earn money?

00:46:47: He says there's no other way than giving people ownership because they have to replace themselves permanently.

00:46:59: And that's an interesting perspective, but also a different pressure now to solve it because technologically wise I can understand.

00:47:14: Well i think the changes coming our way or maybe already here at certain degree are opening up these kinds of questions not just on ownership and what will human beings bring?

00:47:28: to an organization, what will be their role and the role of technology in that.

00:47:34: Or how do those two merge really well?

00:47:37: And I think interesting thing is you have a couple different options right.

00:47:40: so we can just go down traditional routes.

00:47:42: if look at our A trends You kind double-down on hierarchy or profit maximization or centralization control Those elements.

00:47:56: But you can also use technology to double down on all the other stuff.

00:47:59: So a lot of these pioneers used technology, um... These days AIs but before that other technologies too actually free people up from routine work To make sure that human beings can do what they're good at or what their best had when they thrive.

00:48:14: so creativity decision-making judgment Personal relationships those kinds of things and news actually technology.

00:48:22: so people are better able or capable of doing that.

00:48:26: So I think we're at a key moment now, right?

00:48:28: But you can use technology for both paths more the dark side and in other sides... And it's very much up to every organization now to figure out.

00:48:41: which path do i want go down on?

00:48:44: Do I want to really double down on surveillance and control?

00:48:48: And top-down decision making?

00:48:49: because now we have all the information.

00:48:53: Everything becomes transparent, so it also becomes easier to make top-Down decisions Because you... It's much easier to access Information.

00:48:59: So You can get Much more context To Make Certain Decisions.

00:49:04: It's Much Easier To Control People.

00:49:05: Or do you wanna go Down That Route Where You Actually Free People Up And Make Sure There Is Technology In Place To Support Them work they can, and I think that's a key decision for people to make.

00:49:17: And you have to make it right?

00:49:18: You cannot just sit around not making your forced as you said into transitioning... ...and its upto.

00:49:26: you decide.

00:49:26: which path do i take.

00:49:45: can give you an example, like again we have quite trusted environment here and work with a lot of tech.

00:49:50: And one my colleagues was sick for three weeks.

00:49:55: I asked him to replace certain stuff into the agent skills now on intern.

00:50:01: that's basically his job at the moment because he has gone on vacation.

00:50:05: after back there We talked very openly about it.

00:50:08: He said yeah!

00:50:09: That is pretty crazy Because i learned to replace by own jobs.

00:50:13: but I could also now understand that there was a different kind of work coming up.

00:50:20: And he said, and the question is like which is more worth for future?

00:50:26: Like i have good gut feeling but it's so different.

00:50:30: this new way of working combined with technology really accelerating.

00:50:40: It's very, very difficult to leave that two companies in their decision because it just much faster than anything we had before.

00:50:49: So even if I'm an entrepreneur and of course want do my own decisions but i would say not sure.

00:50:55: every company can make the decision sees that already.

00:51:00: I think you have a good point.

00:51:01: is also one.

00:51:02: Bill Gates wrote this week interesting essay on this topic right?

00:51:06: This This transformation of transition is coming so quickly and changing.

00:51:12: So many organizations, the jobs in it that we have to come up with solutions that are also beyond one organization.

00:51:22: look at more systemic change even just when it comes to taxing right?

00:51:28: If you don't need to employ any people anymore or income taxes from those How does that work then internally in the company?

00:51:36: And all those questions, they are now popping up very quickly.

00:51:41: We just don't know how to deal with yet.

00:51:42: so it's an interesting challenge and probably also a reason for government organizations... ...to organize themselves bit more dynamically.

00:51:51: right because

00:51:52: we're quite known in Germany.. ..for being very dynamic at that part!

00:51:57: Let's jump back to Rutger Bergmann because his first book He talked about the basic income topic and he was describing a situation in the US where Richard Nixon, really Nixon.

00:52:16: Was really shortly before bringing a basic universal income into place And I think at last weeks or months there were some old-fashioned people who were kicking against it and so, never came.

00:52:37: There was in Germany an entrepreneur Götz Werner who's a billionaire developed the DM retail chain.

00:52:48: now his son is there he researching twenty years of things to find out whether basic income could be something.

00:53:00: What is your perspective on this?

00:53:01: Do you think that it's something we have to keep in mind again or what other things like...

00:53:09: No, I really don't know.

00:53:12: So even with the universal basic income our brechmanners come back a little bit seeing some of these outcomes from certain experiments around the world.

00:53:23: It isn't my topic and there are much smarter people who comment about them.

00:53:29: I think what is most important in when things become so uncertain, and you see this in organizations too.

00:53:35: Is that you go back to.

00:53:37: how do you organize an uncertainty?

00:53:38: It's through a lot of experimentation right.

00:53:41: So we just don't know many things And We cannot predict What will happen because the environment is so complex.

00:53:46: You can change one thing but you Will never be able To predict what The outcome Of That Change Will Be.

00:53:53: run a lot of tests and experiments to figure out what works, why does it work?

00:53:57: And how can we then start building on that.

00:54:00: I mean i think that's key for everybody to learn in organizations and also in society at large.

00:54:05: That was my hope you put into this because its one your trends.

00:54:10: you foresee so from plan and predict experiment adaptor.

00:54:15: We have test things

00:54:20: Yeah, and even now right.

00:54:21: so when for example.

00:54:22: Now it's a hot topic AI and ways of working.

00:54:27: So many companies know I think okay because of AI we have all over sudden an opportunity to work in a different way.

00:54:35: That's more positive wave.

00:54:36: putting it.

00:54:36: some companies just think ok We need to adapt now or will be extinct in the couple years?

00:54:45: The the wave of AI now also allows the conversation to be much more around ways of working and organizing.

00:54:50: So it's not just a technological problem It's also organizational problems that you need to solve.

00:54:56: I think That's especially Now when it comes to experiment in depth, its key that organizations start doing that Also on bringing new technologies inside their organization because nobody knows what the organizations will look like In few years time.

00:55:11: we don't know.

00:55:13: So, I think we know and have all the wisdom.

00:55:17: But... We just don't.

00:55:18: so it's a lot of give people in your organization voice let them participate And give them room an autonomy to experiment To figure out what is actually working.

00:55:30: for me how can leverage technology to support our customers or get closer to their purpose?

00:55:38: An important thing that many organizations realize they need change something I think often they do it in the wrong way, still coming up with these top-down dictated transformation programs.

00:55:48: What instead should be focusing on?

00:55:49: allowing people to participate... ...in a transition and change?

00:55:54: Then you don't just have more ownership but also much better outcomes because people can experiment what's most relevant for

00:55:59: them.".

00:56:01: And one problem is that if there are static calls to reach then no longer Like for example with the universal basic income anything like that related to it you take away this story of what.

00:56:18: could be out there.

00:56:19: It's like the same with, you want to sail somewhere where it is new?

00:56:23: You tell a story of Mars or you want fly in Mars and they're...you can tell yourself stories!

00:56:28: If you lose that story And make all measurable and countable and very predictable ummm..You loose the contrasting color Out-of That part.

00:56:39: So To round up little bit I would be curious to know what are things you experimented with where were surprised in the outcome and didn't expect that it was so good.

00:56:54: It doesn't need to be universal out cover just from example for a certain company?

00:57:01: Yeah, well there's lot of interesting thing when this comes back to experimenting and adapt right into companies we acquire then transition... We have quite clear idea of the steps we want to take.

00:57:13: So, we wanted get rid off manager roles so not people but manager roles.

00:57:18: there's no functional hierarchy in those companies anymore.

00:57:21: We want implement profit sharing for all.

00:57:24: so twenty five percent profits shared among other people working at company and do consent decision making set up teams with elected representatives.

00:57:35: There are a couple step that will be taken.

00:57:39: But then reality kicks in, right?

00:57:41: So we present to the people that work in that company even before we acquire it.

00:57:47: We say okay this is the transformation program uh...that we want to kickstart once we acquire this company and explain its process how challenging can be ,how much requires from people.

00:57:59: also adapt into new system with a way of working.

00:58:04: And then people get to vote only when they when we have more than eighty percent of people voting in favor.

00:58:11: Of the transformation only then, We actually acquire the business.

00:58:16: but then The transformation process starts and Then reality kicks in.

00:58:20: right.

00:58:20: so yes?

00:58:21: We had this lovely plan.

00:58:22: But then there's trouble with salaries which we want to make peer-based and fully transparent, but things in the past have happened that are complicating things.

00:58:32: Then business is struggling financially.

00:58:35: so first we need to focus on some core thing before starting working for example increasing salaries or doing other stuff.

00:58:43: So I think there again comes back to yes We've got a clear idea of where would like go mostly based on values which i think most important To get into this company.

00:58:56: But with reality being so much more complex than theory, you just need to be able to constantly experiment and adapt.

00:59:03: So there are many things we're constantly learning inside these transformations that kind of teach us okay?

00:59:14: There is no one path for every organization.

00:59:17: it's always about figuring out what works here.

00:59:19: how can we bring people into this transformation?

00:59:22: And I think that's the key thing to make such a transition

00:59:49: work.

00:59:50: and what to do.

00:59:51: And you don't always aim for the one size fits all solution, it's this typical problem that... That you want make at work with everything which never ever works even not in a company!

01:00:04: It never works there.

01:00:05: if your have thirty people its thirteen individuals with different goals or directions and thats maybe.. The most important thing take away.

01:00:14: Yeah and such hard story right?

01:00:15: To bitch.

01:00:17: It's so much more easy to say, okay we have the solution.

01:00:20: This is what it going be like and once you get there its perfect.

01:00:23: that just not how works.

01:00:26: Let me jump back.

01:00:29: First of all, we want to get rid off manager roles.

01:00:32: Not the people but the rules and We had Brian Robertson on our show as well And I'm absolutely fascinated about about The concept of a lot to see.

01:00:42: i've learned that they have so much more productive If it's in place and its running So much more productiv meetings somewhat much more decisions.

01:00:52: But did you manage in all of your acquisitions that there's really, no leadership roles?

01:00:58: Is it just always in this holocracy style so everyone is a leader for their field?

01:01:07: or do certain industries and companies who still need leaders.

01:01:12: No!

01:01:13: You need a lot of leaders from these companies too.

01:01:14: You want to organize something everywhere where people come together.

01:01:17: You don't need bosses.

01:01:23: I think that's the big difference, so yes you need leadership and in holacracy That is very clearly put into certain roles.

01:01:29: where people lead In a certain role We do it slightly different.

01:01:33: So we have Yes People Lead their role when It comes to expertise but also for every team They elect representatives.

01:01:42: they kind of lead Their Team or represent their Team.

01:01:45: Yeah based on Certain Depends On Which Topic And you don't expect one person to be able to do everything.

01:01:55: You just let the team select who they think is a best person, to represent them for certain topics whether that's more strategic or operational Or to align with other teams how work gets done.

01:02:05: So it's this system of representatives That replace traditional management systems.

01:02:12: It's interesting.

01:02:12: I mean companies like McKinsey and Boston Consulting.

01:02:16: They've been doing since decades so their leaders are all.

01:02:21: Yeah, like politicians.

01:02:24: You vote for your global McKinsey leader and other partners vote for them.

01:02:29: so it's interesting.

01:02:29: yeah maybe as Christoph mentioned we're already hitting the hour.

01:02:37: the decision to start your own company and bring all this, what you learned over years visiting companies into a model.

01:02:49: So where are you right now?

01:02:51: If you want talk about it how many companies did you acquire... What is your purpose with these new company models?

01:03:04: It's again coming out of this passion, making more impact towards the creating a better world of work.

01:03:15: The first couple years before we started buying companies it was all focused on research and building a community.

01:03:26: that's very inspiring I love to do but then we reflected who are the most inspiring people in the past few years And they were never really the theorists or the thinkers, so the academics.

01:03:39: It was more people that we're actually doing it.

01:03:42: So to entrepreneurs who built their businesses in such a way and then we said each other okay but now We are turning more into The ones there right?

01:03:48: Talk about this stuff and not so much the one's who are Actually Doing it.

01:03:52: so he said to each Other Okay Let's let's focus on That lets find A Way To put Into practice what we believe In.

01:03:57: an Actually Yeah Practice What We Preach came together with a couple of really experienced transformation people and launched the company called Chrysos, where we buy these traditional businesses and transform them to everything I just talked about.

01:04:16: And then so we started doing that in July twenty three.

01:04:21: We acquired our first company an aerospace manufacturing company in Seville Spain last two years.

01:04:29: We've acquired two more companies in Barcelona to aluminum foundries.

01:04:34: So it's focused on Spain now.

01:04:37: That is where we acquired the first three businesses, all in transformation still but showing very good results.

01:04:43: so its kind of proof that what were doing actually works and therefore also has potential to skill.

01:04:50: We are working with a team from Germany And having initial conversations in Netherlands, Italy and Switzerland to also start setting up teams who could do the same thing.

01:05:01: In Germany especially.

01:05:03: it's interesting.

01:05:04: there is a huge... potential there and also I think a huge need for it with so many succession challenges.

01:05:10: And this is great, especially these types of businesses like medium-sized enterprises where the founder still leading but has trouble finding the person who will then take on their business?

01:05:24: It's a great opportunity to be organized in more human way in a way that's much more aligned with steward ownership or employee ownership, for example.

01:05:37: So especially in Germany we're focusing on the combination of new ways of working our New Work combined with a new ownership structure so Steward Ownership.

01:05:46: You can really make sure these companies focus on their mission and on there people.

01:05:57: now We have great investors that we work With That allow us to acquire These Companies And mostly it's entrepreneurs who've done who've run self-managed businesses before.

01:06:08: They know the potential and they would love to see this skill, so they put their money behind it as well which is a cool thing to see.

01:06:14: And Is that still your partner?

01:06:16: And you sleeping in the same bed on the same plan?

01:06:19: or how do... Thanks

01:06:22: for rounding That one up.

01:06:24: How does your core team look like

01:06:29: now?

01:06:29: So luckily I sleep with my wife Now not with the host anymore.

01:06:37: Yeah, so ten years down the line we have two teams in place.

01:06:41: So one... We are working with them to acquire and transform these businesses And other is a separate business corporate rebels where we work With small team of four people.

01:06:51: Then there's big group of freelancers around it Especially freelancer who coordinate local communities In their regions.

01:06:59: Also for example in Germany Actually, two coordinators.

01:07:03: One with a Berlin community and also one in the rest of Germany Community where we bring together pioneering businesses to learn from each other into exchange ideas And that's also the aim of growing our impact too.

01:07:17: on the one hand buy more businesses Together with local entrepreneurs to show this impractice And at the same time, continue researching publishing and building a community around the world of companies that believe in the same kind of values as we do.

01:07:35: Gustav last question it's your turn.

01:07:38: well It was very simple one into very short one from how did you become the person?

01:07:44: That you are?

01:07:45: where do want to go next?

01:07:48: yeah Well In terms of Work stuff I already talked about just right now.

01:07:55: So mainly scaling this buy-and-transform business and scaling our community around the world.

01:08:02: Personally, learning how to become a better entrepreneur... And of course the continuous struggle for becoming a better dad.

01:08:15: Two little girls who are still two in four so it's easy.

01:08:19: I get there is time But I'm enjoying that a lot and spending time on it as well.

01:08:28: Even though i love work, but could do this all day long... ...I am also very conscious about the times when I want to spend with other things like friends or family for example every winter six weeks working in different locations.

01:08:43: I'm working four days a week and not more than that.

01:08:48: But at the same time, also very excited about entrepreneurship in general until i want to make as much impact possible there.

01:08:55: so it's about figuring out how to do that in this short period of time So we can nicely balance all the other lovely stuff in life.

01:09:03: Thank you so much for this.

01:09:06: right was absolutely amazing And uh...I hope will meet in person soon and maybe do a second part.

01:09:19: Thank you very much, it was... Very nice to talk with one of the two guys behind this great idea or ideas I now have say about your second pillar.

01:09:32: All the best for you.

01:09:33: Your family Two little daughters Call Christoph.

01:09:37: he's an expert in raising daughters.

01:09:43: Now thanks a lot, I enjoyed joining you guys and please also continue doing the work that you do.

01:09:49: Newwork might be big word in Germany or big theme.

01:09:54: but if we look at what companies are still doing there is long way to go.

01:09:57: so it's great what your'e doing contributing this movement.

01:10:01: Thank You!

01:10:06: in principle for ten years to deal with the topic, great.

01:10:12: Yes what is left of it?

01:10:13: First you need leaders but you don't need bosses.

01:10:15: yes we do not have a leader but no boss.

01:10:19: PIM distinguishes very clearly between leadership and hierarchy and leadership needs just everywhere where people want to achieve something together.

01:10:27: But this leadership does not have to be at one person permanently or at a position.

01:10:37: they can share their team and change tasks depending on them.

01:10:41: Second Something that I always emphasize and see.

01:10:46: Purpose shows itself in decision making.

01:10:48: A purpose only works when people really experience it in the company.

01:10:51: Relevance is important, yes of course but... It has to be lived on.

01:10:55: But influence who we set up which products we develop with whom we work how we make decisions And therefore a purpose can also be hard to implement in companies if there isn't any kind of root for them.

01:11:10: Thirdly We have to experiment much more.

01:11:11: In our complex world, we can always say the following decisions are bad.

01:11:16: And PIMP's answer to this is pretty pragmatic.

01:11:18: Try it out and learn from it.

01:11:21: And that applies for organizations as well as for our transition with KI as a society.

01:11:27: Fourth, KI is also an organization question.

01:11:30: Technology cannot strengthen control or centralization but people can also free themselves of routines in order to give them more space for creativity, decision-making, judgment and relationship.

01:11:40: This is a firm for the company, you have to decide which way they want.

01:11:45: And at the end of May it was said that we should do this.

01:11:47: It's too beautiful in German and we just want to do it better.

01:11:52: After years of research, travel and writing, Pim bought his own

01:11:55: company.

01:11:56: There she put her ideas practically around them.

01:11:58: They create classic manager roles, participate, work on winning and distribution Decision new.

01:12:02: For me, it's an important thought.

01:12:04: If you want to change your job at some point try out if the ideas work in reality as well And that is of course a very nice connection also for our podcast.

01:12:16: after almost ten years on The Way To New Work there are still a lot to learn and to change And if you are still interested in our podcast, please leave us a comment on the Apple platform and Spotify.

01:12:32: Of course also when you're on another podcast platform, feel free to send us your five-star e-mail address at Gästevorschlägeweiter.com.

01:12:41: We'll be happy about that next week!

01:12:46: We have more great guests coming up next week.

01:12:50: Greetings from Christoph & Michael.